Apple Pay discussion topic

NiB

Jeroen 🏳️‍🌈
I was aware of this PDF before and it confirms what I stated:
BaFin, the German financial supervisory authority, will only handle complaints regarding supervised entities (banks, insurances, etc.), as they say themselves.

The non-working link to Bundesjustizamt, which should now point here, only lists consumer (protections) associations, all of them incorporated as registered associations - same legal form as would be a small football or model railway enthusiasts club. While they should employ legal professionals, they are no „authority“ that would be required to handle your complaint or could take any enforcement measures. They can, at best, send a cease-and desist letter as a means of out-off-court dispute resolution or take others to court - but will only do so if its worth their while.

And then, when they actually did have to take a merchant to court, the cease-and-desist letter and following court’s ruling only applies to discrimination of IBAN accounts in one single member state (Luxembourgish bank accounts) and for consumers from single member state (Germany). So if you have your bank account and/or you live in any other member state: file another complaint. The madness!

But yeah, back to Apple Pay... ;)

JeroenE

NiB So the BaFin told you explicitly they will not handle your IBAN discrimination complaint despite being listed as the competent authority to do this and neither does the Bundesjustizamt. In that case you chould complain to the EU that competent authorities designated by Germany are not handling your complaint. EU regulations trump national law, but of course this will take a long time to get resolved. If nobody ever complains, nothing will change :sad:

Sander

NiB But yeah, back to Apple Pay... ;)

👆 Let’s go back on-topic here and keep the IBAN discrimination stuff for Germany in like this topic: https://together.bunq.com/d/536-german-problems-with-sepa-iban-acceptance-collective-topic 😁

Roeshimi

Boris I've heard that argument here in Germany too, still we do have Apple Pay.
I find the "low transaction cost law" thing more plausible than what you said, but I don't know that for a fact of course.

Borisss

Roeshimi I hope the banks will make an agreement with Apple so Apple Pay can finally come

Roeshimi

Boris I wish this for you as well

Paul-Grey-Unicorn-386063522

Boris Apple should allow bunq to deliver Apple Pay in NL. When the big banks will start loosing more customers to bunq they will start moving. I thought that the big banks promised to focus more on customer satisfaction. As usual they do not act as promised but are protecting their own short term interest.

maique

Question: another bank already announced Apple Pay “soon” in Portugal. Should I expect bunq to provide this as well as soon as my country is available for Apple Pay ?

NiB

maique
Wouldn’t expect it, as Portugal isn’t one of bunq’s „official“ target markets (yet).

maique

NiB Sorry to hear that. N26 is big here, Curve is opening an office around town as well, Revolut has thousands of happy users in the country, Transferwise is also a big player. Would be nice to see bunq offering this. It’s a country of early-adopters and people really are waiting for Apple Pay. I guess the first bank to offer that will get a lot of new users.

Casper-Yellow-Wolf

Ok, I'm trying to make sense of why Apple Pay isn't available in The Netherlands.
Theory: NL banks are not willing to pay the Apple Pay transaction fee seeing as card payment adoption will not increase with it (unlike Germany, Italy, etc). Apple only wants to release AP in NL with partner banks that have substantial user numbers. Apple has launched with certain banks under exclusivity. You would assume that partnering with a single NL bank, so as to stir the pot and inflame competition, is on Apple's radar as a strategy of deployment.

Also, Apple is motivated by iPhone sales. Google Pay (and alternatives) adoption by banks and customers move Apple to take on a more active approach. I don't know how active NL banks are developing Android/Google alternatives to AP, but if not, that would seem logical as they might indirectly speed up AP availability, which they don't want.

This is the current impasse.

Has bunq proactively approached Apple for an exclusive collaboration? Or is it not possible to reach out to them? Bunq wouldn't have a lot of cash to offer, but the upside would be competition amongst banks leading to adoption of Apple Pay.

Thoughts?

JeroenE

Casper Niemand weet wat de exacte reden is. Zulk soort besprekingen zijn vaak op vertrouwelijke basis dus bunq gaat hier echt niet vertellen of ze dit al besproken hebben en wat de reden is dat Apple het nog niet heeft gelanceerd.

Casper-Yellow-Wolf

Jeroen 🏳️‍🌈 I wasn't asking for a reaction from bunq. Just trying to understand the current situation

Samzoiets

Ik denk dat alleen Apple weet wanneer ze banken willen gaan benaderen in een bepaald land. Als die banken benaderd zijn, moeten die het nog voor zich houden tot Apple de tijd voor uitrol rijp vindt in dat land.

We kunnen dus alleen hopen (of bidden, als je dat liever doet) dat Apple snel Nederland gaat aansluiten. Verder kunnen we alleen maar Apple benaderen met verzoeken, omdat de banken ook afhankelijk zijn van Apple.

De Nederlandse infrastructuur is er naar, de enige twee plekken waar ik Apple Pay niet kon gebruiken in Nederland zijn een lokaal tankstation hier in de buurt en...

...de Apple Store op het Leidseplein in Amsterdam.

Het is een kwestie van tijd en dus geduld. Ik had dat niet en heb 'de omweg' gebruikt. Het is een fantastische manier van betalen en veiliger dan pinnen. Ik denk zeker dat het hier enorm zal aanslaan.

Sander

Casper bunq is not going to reply; if they are in talks they are not allowed to disclose this as mentioned (NDAs). These are confidental agreements/talks, so we will need to wait until the both parties have agreed to reveal any plans (when there are any..) 🙂

Edit: Whoops, I misread you there, I thought you were actually asking for a reply by bunq, sorry! :-)

JeroenE

Casper Ik snap je wel, maar als de mensen die het weten het niet vertellen dan komen wij er natuurlijk nooit achter. Ik denk zelf dat Apple het grootste probleem is. Het is niet alsof bunq niet wil. Ze hebben dit immers ook al in andere landen.

Casper-Yellow-Wolf

Sander I'm not asking for a response from bunq. Just trying to figure out how it is that in all these countries around The Netherlands Apple Pay is available while not in NL, while it is more prepared for it than its neighbours.

Someone from bunq can chime in if they want, but I wasn't asking for it nor do I expect them to.

Casper-Yellow-Wolf

I think that because card payment is so widely adopted, NL banks are hesitant to implement Apple Pay. It provides no extra adoption and it costs them money (theory). That's why I think Apple Pay isn't yet available in NL and why it could probably take a while. No one is in a rush.

Two factors could influence it:
1. Banks could be incentivized. Either by direct competition or in the case of ING; reputation. ING could probably use some positivity around its brand (not to mention customers)
2. Apple could be incentivized. If the absence of Apple Pay would lead to slowing sales. It isn't currently the case. Sales are slowing because people aren't upgrading, not because people are crossing over to Android.

NiB

Casper
I concur.
In the Netherlands, where cashless payments are widely adopted, there does not seem to be much potential for even higher adoption and thus additional revenue. And I doubt Apple isn't going to implement Apple Pay for free, whereas they (reportedly) do charge a small share in other countries. And then, as we know, the pie that Apple could take their slice from, is even smaller compared to other countries, as (domestic) interchange fees are (usually) lower than in other countries.

Dennis-Aquamarine-Wolf

https://wewantapplepay.com

LH-Black-Wolf

Dennis I don’t think accidentally should be in quotes on that page... Makes it sound like a scheme, lol. Ali said in the podcast that it was never intended as an announcement for Apple Pay in the Netherlands. :) That’s why they also quickly patched that super easy workaround within a few hours by adding the region checks. :) Besides, I think it’d be better to point out hoe the infrastructure in NL is ready for it as most shops have contactless payment terminals these days! :)

Good luck with that anyway, I think Apple knows very well that we want it and there must be some reason it isn’t going through only here and in Luxemburg, whilst nearly all other EU-countries (will) have it (soon). They’re probably well aware and so I’m very much afraid a petition will not make any difference. :( It isn’t telling them anything new and if it’s the banks being a problem or something legal: it certainly won’t make any difference. They got plenty of complaints about it, Google as well. All the same, you can of course try - so best of luck and I hope it does make a difference! :)