Hey Christoph and all other English speaking bunqers! đ
Good news! We took the time to transcribe Ali's interview at BNR into English so all bunqers can enjoy this wonderful interview on TransIP, investors and the future of bunq.
Check out the full text below or, if you prefer, download the attached PDF file đ
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Interviewer 1 (Annet van Soest): He developed his first computer program when he was 9, started investing when he was 15 [sic] and founded his first company a year later. Two years ago he entered the financial market to shook up the established order by launching the mobile only bank bunq, Ali Niknam, good morning.
Ali: Good morning, thanks for having me.
Interviewer 1: Youâre someone who isnât satisfied easily, are you? âIf you are satisfied, being an entrepreneur, you are not ambitious enoughâ, you once said. When will it be enough for you?
Ali: Thatâs a good question. For now I still have the ambition to make bunq a global player. Which will still take a while, so when weâve managed to do that, weâll decide on what to do next.
Interviewer 1: But surely you are allowed to open a bottle of wine when that time comes?
Ali: Yeah, Iâll even take a night off!
Interviewer 1: Weâll discuss your ambitions regarding bunq later, however I first would like to talk about the first company you founded, TransIP (a domain name and hosting company), which you started in the typical way you would found a start up: in your attic. A year ago you sold a part of the shares to a Swedish investment company, but you bought them all back last month, why?
Ali: Well, we both started with the best intentions, however some internal changes at the Swedish investment company made us decide that after a year of collaboration it would be in the best interest of the company to just let one of us continue with the business. I had the privilege to be that one.
Interviewer 1: So you guys had a different view on things?
Ali: We had a different view on things, mainly on international expansion.
Interviewer 1: âI prefer a pleasant divorce over an unhappy marriageâ - thatâs what you stated in het Financieele Dagblad.
Ali: Exactly and besides that, weâve parted ways on good and speaking terms. Itâs just important to be professional enough to end the relationship in a good way and thatâs what happened. All good.
Interviewer 1: Your quote reminded me of a different interview in which you mentioned that your parents got divorced when you were 15. Now you use divorce as a metaphor when it comes to you and an investor parting ways. Can we establish parallels between the two?
Ali: Doing business, or anything you do really, you do as a human being. Every relationship is a relationship, whether this is a business relationship or a personal relationship. Furthermore, I think itâs important whether it comes to contact with business partners or employees that you always maintain a good understanding. You could say that there are parallels between the two.
Interviewer 1: You blamed your parents for not having the courage to split up earlier. Could we see this as a reason for you take this difficult, but important decision earlier in time?
Ali: Well, in my opinion the earlier you take any decision, the easier and therefore I didnât really struggle making the decision, neither did the Swedish company. I mean, itâs a rational decision.
Interviewer 1: What was the idea behind letting the Swedish company invest in TransIP?
Ali: International expansion.
Interviewer 1: How are you now going to ensure this international growth for TransIP?
Ali: The original management team that now is in place again has some ideas on how we are going to achieve that. Raymond Kasiman, with whom I started my second company, The Datacenter Group and Jeroen, who has been for the last couple of years and returned to be the CEO of TransIP started working on some very exciting plans together.
Interviewer 1: Because they had been sidetracked due to the Swedish company before?
Ali: They appointed a different management team indeed.
Interviewer 1: I can imagine that the Swedish investment company was supposed to fund this international expansion. How are you guys going to take care of this now?
Ali: Luckily TransIP is on a really good track, just like at bunq we make fantastic products at TransIP and itâs growing rapidly. So we should see whether we need an investor at one point, we might.
Interviewer 1: So TransIP is profitable?
Ali: Fortunately, it is profitable, otherwise I wouldnât have been able to do it.
Interviewer 1: Indeed. And those profits are being used to let bunq grow, right?
Ali: Thatâs right.
Interviewer 1: So, surely one day you'll run out of money?
Ali: I think TransIP will keep on growing, bunqâs costs will more or less stay the same or will even decrease. So for now there is no reason to worry.
Interviewer 1: In the meantime you are fully focusing on bunq. Will you start dividing your time between both companies?
Ali: No. I have been fully focussed on bunq and will continue to do so. TransIP was and will always be my baby, so I really enjoy popping by frequently. I really like the people and the product, so I am happy to still be involved in some way.
Interviewer 1: Yes, but it sounds like youâve distanced yourself from it a little bit already, you only still go and pay a visit and thatâs it.
Ali: Nothing changed basically in comparison to how it has been for years.
Interviewer 2 (Thomas van Zijl): But isnât it just easier to distance yourself from something when itâs going right? Imagine that this wouldnât be the case, wouldnât you feel the need to have some control over it again?
Ali: Thatâs just speculation, I donât know.
Interviewer 1: What have you learned over the last year?
Ali: Thatâs a really good question. Iâve learned that Iâm not a good fit with âExcel sheet kind of peopleâ and that itâs always nice to do business with other people that have a positive view on the future, that see opportunities, that operate based on their vision and want to make great things together.
Interviewer 1: What are âExcel sheet people?â
Ali: People who look at Excel.
Interviewer 1: And âExcel sheet kind of peopleâ are focused on making quick profit?
Ali: You need âExcel sheet people tooâ, they are important, although you should always have a balance. They tend to look at Excel instead of looking at people and opportunities.
Interviewer 1: Would you be more or less hesitant to take on an external investor?
Ali: I think I might be less hesitant now.
Interviewer 1: Yeah? How remarkable. Why?!
Ali: Iâve had the experience so I know how it works.
Interviewer 1: And how it shouldnât work?
Ali: And how it shouldnât work and what to be careful of.
Interviewer 1: But what would you do differently next time?
Ali: A large part of it was unforeseeable due to the internal changes at that Swedish company, so I would possibly pick a smaller company with closer internal relationships. On the other hand, I donât think that that much went wrong in the first place. I do understand thatâs itâs nice for a radio show to present it as something that went dramatically wrong, but actually it wasnât that dramatic at all..
Interviewer 2: Thatâs not only because itâs a radio show. You guys started something together with good intentions and clear plans and relatively quickly parted ways. This doesnât only raise questions for the radio, right?
Ali: If it raises questions, thatâs fine. The point that I am trying to make that as an entrepreneur you try things all the time, sometimes they work, sometimes they donât. Which doesnât necessarily mean that itâs some big drama and therefore I think: ok, so this time it didnât work out, mostly caused by factors that were unforeseeable. Does that mean that you shouldnât try anything anymore because of that? No.
Interviewer 1: I could imagine that you have are less likely to cooperate with external investors anyway because you are the sole investor of bunq.
Ali: Correct. Thatâs a slightly different story. There is different stages when it comes to the growth of a company. Firstly, when you just started and then you get some traction, then it starts to take off and you get a group of enthusiastic clients, you develop nice products, you are growing. This is the stage where we are at with bunq now. If you decide to take European investors onboard at that stage, they are, in my experience, more likely to get involved during the scale up stage. This means for example, international expansion and similar projects. So, it would be unhealthy for bunq to take onboard an investor at this stage when the product and the company arenât fully crystallised yet.
Interviewer 1: Also, the investors will not be as patient than you are maybe?
Ali: Investors have a clear plan when they get onboard, usually they would get in for 3-5 years. Which is fine, it just doesnât fit into the stage where bunq is at right now.
Interviewer 1: You have made an extra deposit of 9 million euro to compensate the losses, to keep the company up and running. How long will you be able to keep up pre-financing losses with your own money?
Ali: Thatâs a fairly easy calculation as long as bunqâs losses are lower than TransIPâs profit, there will be no problem. Which is something I can easily oversee and have influence on.
Interviewer 1: How many years would that be?
Ali: In theory it would be infinite.
Interviewer 1: If TransIP keeps on doing well.
Ali: If TransIP keeps on doing well.
Interviewer 1: In 2016 bunq suffered a loss of 5 million. How come?
Ali: It is a start up company.
Interviewer 1: Ah, come on.
Ali: Yes, itâs start up company. I think that in the Netherlands we usually donât set up global companies. The last company that, in my opinion, did that was TomTom and that was already 25 years ago.
Interviewer 2: What about Booking?
Ali: Booking hasnât been a Dutch company for a long time now. When it was a Dutch company, it had fantastic products, but there wasnât any scale until the moment that the Americans got onboard and started investing heavily. They also had significant losses, a lot higher than the 5 million we are talking about right now. Only from that moment on Booking started to become a big and internationally known company. Anyhow, I am not that worried. If you have great ambitions, then you should have the courage to actually go for it and thatâs what Iâm doing.
Interviewer 1: Are you not afraid - I donât think so, but letâs ask it anyway - that, as a fintech company, you are now doing the pioneer work while the big traditional banks relax and sit back until bunq has matured a bit and then decide to strike with for example, a takeover bid?
Ali: Well, weâve already had some takeover bids, also from the big traditional banks which can be explained by the fact that it is being recognised that bunq offers an extremely good product. There have also been attempts to copy parts of the product. So, am I afraid of it? No, I am not afraid of it, to me itâs proof that weâre on the right track and doing the right things.
Interviewer 1: Will you ever sell bunq?
Ali: Thatâs the same type of question that your colleague just asked me. Will I ever do that? Who knows.
Interviewer 1: But for now it isnât the plan?
Ali: For now it isnât. Itâs just too much fun.
â Commercial breakâ
Interviewer 1: At our studio, weâve welcomed entrepreneur Ali Niknam, known for his companies bunq and TransIP. Weâll start presenting you some dilemmaâs, you need to pick one, however you get the opportunity to refine your statements afterwards.
Dillema 1:
It is odd that a very few Dutch tech companies have worldwide presence or we could say that there is something wrong with the Dutch entrepreneurial climate.
Ali: Eh, the first option.
Dillema 2:
Weâre at an advanced stage when it comes to the negotiations with Apple Pay or we are not in any type of contact with Apple Pay.
Ali: I am not in a position to comment on that.
Dillema 3:
Dutch entrepreneurs are not ambitious enough or I spot plenty of ambition.
Ali: I spot plenty of ambition.
Interviewer 1: It is remarkable that you havegreat ambitions. bunq should become a global player. Why do you stress this so much?
Ali: Because I think it would be really great. I do think we have a lot of talent in the Netherlands. I see that, somehow, these ambitions donât make it across the Dutch borders. I think that we are in a strong position to set up some real good Dutch companies and that if we will go for it all together, we should definitely be able to achieve it.
Interviewer 1: Doesn't your ambition sometimes stand in the way? I mean, you set the bar really high.
Ali: Eh, yes.
Interviewer 1: When?
Ali: Like Cruyff used to say: every disadvantage has its advantage.
Interviewer 1: Please give us an example of when that happens.
Ali: For example, I work extremely hard causing me to not always get enough sleep like you just noticed during the commercial break.
Interviewer 2: Haha we saw you doze off for a bit, you also have a jet lag right?
Ali: I do indeed, just flew back from Silicon Valley, but you know like I said: every disadvantage has its advantage. You could also turn it around and say that if you lack ambition, you could also experiences disadvantages as a result.
Interviewer 1: Sure, but if you despise mediocrity, like youâve mentioned in an earlier interview.
Ali: That was 6 years ago.
Interviewer 1: Yeah, but that is not something that suddenly changes I suppose.
Ali: No.
Interviewer 1: Then I could only imagine that it would not be a lot of fun for the average employee to work for bunq. Or did you only hire super employees?
Ali: In my opinion, bunq is the place to be for current and future bunq employees that have high standards and want to give it their all. I think bunq is quite different in comparison to other companies, because we truly give it our all which makes it a lot of fun, too. For all the listeners out there: if you are a person who likes to give it your all, if you are passionate about your work, please join bunq. We welcome you.
Interviewer 1: During the launch we saw that bunq is all about building the bank like you would build it nowadays. Please explain again what bunq stands for exactly.
Ali: bunq is a bank like you would build it today, meaning that itâs a transparent company that listens to their users. User experience is our top priority, there is no catch, it isnât a static product but itâs in fact a lean company when it comes modernisation etcetera.
Interviewer 1: Question from a listener: would you compare bunq to N26, the first mobile bank in Europe according to themselves or whatâs the difference?
Ali: The main difference is that we were the first and they werenât. They are better at marketing though. Another difference is that bunq has a very close relationship with its users and that we have way better control when it comes to the IT side of things. What I think N26 tries to do, with success by the way, is taking banks like they are now, improving it and rolling it out which results in lower fees and higher interest percentages etcetera. Meanwhile, what bunq tries to be is an IT company with a banking license - in other words - to create a whole new concept.
Interviewer 1: You only focus on payment traffic right? So no saving accounts nor loans?
Ali: Indeed. This aligns with the vision of a more diffused financial sector in which every player can decide to offer a different set of products.
Interviewer 1: bunq offers two memberships: Business and Premium. The latter got launched in August and causing quite a fuss. You probably knew I was going to ask you a question about this.
Ali: Haha yes, of course you do. Predictably stating all the obvious.
Interviewer 2: Has it been that bad the last 20 minutes?
Ali: Haha no, itâs ok.
Interviewer 1: How is it going now?
Ali: It is going really well.
Interviewer 1: How can we see the results of that, how many Premium users do you have?
Ali: Thatâs a conversation killer.
Interviewer 1: No, I knew you were going to say this. Youâve also said this to our editor who spoke to you before to prepare the interview. Why is it such a sensitive topic? How can we know if bunq is successful otherwise?
Ali: I think you guys are well aware of that and that thatâs the reason Iâm here. It isnât a sensitive topic.
Interviewer 1: It could be that I donât fully get your answer. Please elaborate.
Ali: I mean that Iâm here, you guys really wanted me to be here andI like being here too. This is all because bunq has a meaning in the Netherlands and we are already quite big. The amount of users isnât a sensitive topic, however at bunq we are strict when it comes to certain things: we donât communicate upfront when we launch new features, because we like surprising our users and secondly when it comes to these numbers, you know that the traditional banks are watching us cautiously. This is the reason why we do not communicate them publicly.
Interviewer 1: But then the answer is simple right: itâs competition-sensitive information.
Ali: Sure.
Interviewer 1: Then itâs not stating the obvious, is it?
Ali: Well itâs literally what I told your editor yesterday and we agreed on not talking on this subject.
Interviewer 1: There has been quite some critical feedback on Premium causing some negative PR. Early adopters felt cheated on, who didnât see the new membership as transparent at all.
Ali: I think part of the problem was the communication. We launched Premium during our fifth bunq update. These updates are always quite hectic and comparable to an Apple Keynote, where sometimes things go wrong too. We didnât send out a mailing explaining Premium which resulted in confusion that was picked up by a journalist, who in their turn used this to create a different reality. The biggest misunderstanding was that current users would be forced to switch to Premium, but this has never been the case. Things calmed down when we explained it the next day.
Interviewer 1: But they did have to upgrade to Premium if they would change something on their current subscription, if they wanted to order an extra card.
Ali: Yes, thatâs right. Thatâs a different mistake, but we chose to listen to our users and said âsorry guys, we fucked upâ and we fixed it.
Interviewer 1: Did you apologise?
Ali: Most definitely, you could read the mailings we sent out if you want.
Interviewer 1: That was also one of the critics: people thought: come one, just apologise.
Ali: Yes, but an apology did take place. I would have been great if the journalists would have picked that up too. Because they just created an asymmetry of information.
Interviewer 1: Sure, but all of this was your own fault, you forgetting to send out a mailing. So is it really the journalists their fault who didnât have all the information?
Ali: Eh, no, a lot of confusion was created because no attention was spent on the explanatory email we sent out.
Interviewer 1: You want to conquer the world. How are you going to do that?
Interviewer 2: With Apple, right?
Ali: Haha, by continuing to do what we do, following our own path, listen carefully to our users, trying to understand what they really want and build great products.
Interviewer 1: I feel like that can be specified a bit more.
Interviewer 2: Indeed. âDoing what we doâ, I mean, you want to accelerate this process right, if you want to become a global player. Is this doable using own resources?
Ali: To become a global player we are in need of two things. The first would be regulation thatâs more fair to new parties entering the market, because itâs now beneficial to existing parties only. Secondly, it should become easier to switch banks, like you now already can with your mobile phone provider. The financial situation is now in deadlock, so weâre already doing something that is widely considered to be impossible.
Interviewer 1: A question from a listener, Edwin de Haas: to which countries will bunq expand in the near future?
Ali: Weâve tested the waters in Germany and Austria, when we launched a couple months ago.
Interviewer 1: You just got back from the US, thatâs why you have a jet lag.
Ali: Yeah, a big one and I picked up a cold too!
Interviewer 1: So, is the US next?
Ali: That could be possible, weâre currently doing some research. If we decide to do that, we should apply for a banking license again which is a process that takes a couple of years. Welcome to the financial sector.
Interviewer 1: There is no easier way to achieve that?
Ali: Well, if you would ask me, there should be. Maybe you can make an appeal on the regulators!
Interviewer 1: I would love to have such an influence. What we are going to do instead, to conclude this interview, is listen to your favourite song. You chose Childish Gambino - Redbone. This song is about relationships and paranoia. Donât you think thatâs interesting?
Ali: If you say so I just heard it over dinner the other night and really liked the beat.