Dear English speaking bunqers! 🌈

Good news! We took the time to transcribe Ali's interview at BNR into English so all bunqers can enjoy this awesome interview about how we're disrupting the banking industry, our goal of expanding to the U.S. and much more.

Check out the full text below 🙌

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Paul: Welcome to BNR Business, BNR’s business program.

Bank challenger bunq holds a lot more money these days, but it’s still far from being profitable. Recently founder and CEO Ali Niknam injected several of own money into his online bank, and today I talk to him. Ali Niknam, welcome!

Ali: Thanks

Paul: bunq fell about 9 million Euros short in 2017, after which you again decided to invest more money, 5 million Euros this time, following a 9 million Euro deposit in 2016. That’s some serious money you have to invest each year.

Ali: Yeah, you’d think, but the nice thing about bunq is that we’re doing something big and bunq is one of the few companies that has a chance to grow into a worldwide success. That’s because we have a fantastic product that offers a great user experience. And I always say: Big dreams, big steps…so it requires courage.

Paul: And in that sense the costs precede the benefits. 9 million last year, 5 million this year. Can that be sustained?

Ali: Yes. Fortunately the costs of bunq are fairly predictable, and I know how well TransIP - another one of my companies that’s going really well - performs, and I try to balance that.

Paul: So it’s a case of ‘cross financing’…The money TransIP makes can go to bunq?

Ali: Yes, one successful company establishes the next successful company.

Paul: And to what extent are you involved in your other company, TransIP?

Ali: From a distance. It’s because we have a team of excellent people working there, a lot of them educated and ‘raised’ in a time when I was still there. And those guys are doing an awesome job. I’m very proud of them.

Paul: What do bunq clients think about the fact so much money needs to be invested into bunq each year, that bunq isn’t self sufficient yet so to speak?

Ali: Well, bunq finances its losses in advance. Our own capital is tens of millions of Euros, so that’s extremely safe. Plus, I think most people know that, looking at companies like Amazon, Facebook, all those ‘big guys’, it took them over a decade to become profitable.

Paul: (laughing) You compare yourself with them?

Ali: I hope to end in a similar fashion.

Paul: I can imagine. Does that also mean that, like Apple or Facebook, clients are also fans, that they believe in their company? Is that something you see at bunq as well, that your customers ‘cherish’ your company?

Ali: Yes, it may sound weird, but we have many users who embrace bunq. And you may think: a bank, how exciting can that be? But what makes bunq different is that we really appreciate our users’ involvement, that we listen to them and act on their feedback…and it affects you when a traditional (old fashioned) institution like a bank does listen to you all of a sudden, and that you get to be a part of it.

Paul: That was that big moment five years ago, right, when you entered the market as the big disruptor of an ailing banking sector? I think the banks’ likability was very low at that point. But time flies. It’s been five years already. Has bunq managed to realize its goals from that time?

Ali: I think I should add that our doors opened only 2,5 years ago. A bank can’t operate without a banking license, so it took us a while to obtain that. And I think that, looking back at the past 2,5 years, when we started off with just about nothing, a relatively simple app, and where we are now, I see that people are starting to notice us, not just in the Netherlands, but also in surrounding territories, with an app that offers a great user experience, an ideology shared by many people (that we don’t invest your money in shady businesses), and the feeling of freedom you experience from using our app; yes, we really made a lot of progress.

Paul: But banks were so unpopular a few years ago, you’d expect that, when an alternative presents itself, where you get a say in things, the ‘bank of the free’, you’d expect hordes of people to jump on the wagon, but that’s not exactly what we’ve seen?

Ali: Looking at how I use bunq, I fully switched to bunq for my day to day money and I think it’s fantastic, but I also maintain a few other bank accounts on the side.

Paul: (laughing) Yeah, but it’s your ‘gang’, so I would expect as much.

Ali: Yeah, but I’m also highly critical. There just came a moment when I decided I wanted to use it (bunq) for my day to day money because it’s a better experience, and because I love being involved with the bank of the free as a client. There was that moment (when I made the switch), but that doesn’t mean I don’t have other bank accounts.

Paul: Okay, but do you think traditional banks responded to all the changes? Do you think they may have listened to the public outcry and that they adapted, also regarding fintech solutions?

Ali: Well, I noticed that in the years before bunq, there was very little innovation coming from big banks, and when we entered the scene, there was a sense of shock at those big banks, and one of the things I notice is that quite a few of our features are being copied. In that sense we fulfill our ideology, because we wanted to make the world better, bring changes, and bring reform to the (banking) sector. So paradoxically, that’s one of the things we’ve accomplished very well already.

Paul: That’s on you. (We have bunq to thank for that?)

Ali: Why, thank you!

Paul: (laughing) That was a question.

Ali: It does feel like it. When you look at all the nice things we released on the market, and that some of those are being copied, then we’re very satisfied with that.

Paul: So you’re referring to the Tikkie app among other things?

Ali: Yes, but also sending payment requests and a number of other things, and that, suddenly, innovation (in apps) does seem to take place, whereas it didn’t in the years before that.

Paul: You’re being a good sport, but you’re basically saying they stole your ideas.

Ali: Well, ‘stole’?…Yes.

Paul: You’re saying it with a smile, but I would be ticked off when you bring a very real solution to the market, one that’s very user friendly, and then one of the big banks effectively steals that.

Ali: Well, the Tikkie story is kinda funny: We released a service named bunq.me, it went very well, then ABN decided ‘that’s a cool idea’. Of course ABN has a much bigger marketing budget than we do, which is why it (Tikkie) grew faster. So we sat down and figured the day we have the same marketing budget as ABN is a long way ahead, so we went about improving the product even more, because that’s what we’re really good at.

Paul: But for me - I’m not very tech savvy, I don’t like changing apps all the time, so when I have something that works, that’s where it ends for me as a user.

Ali: Do you have Tikkie?

Paul: Sure I use Tikkie, but I’m not going to wait for bunq.me. It’s not something I look out for.

Ali: Were you one of the first people to get Tikkie?

Paul: Not at all. I just go with the flow.

Ali: Well, the nice thing about bunq is that we are ahead of the flow. Undoubtedly there will come a moment, perhaps only a few months from now, that you will use bunq.me.

Paul: But that just makes me think that someday a big bank will take over bunq and all its features. Are you open to that?

Ali: Not necessarily. Should something like a takeover occur, then we’ll cross that bridge when we get there. That’s not something that will happen in the near future.

Paul: But it would be interesting, especially regarding your contributions in fintech. If you look at the great succes of Adyen, when they went public. Do you see something like that happening to bunq?

Ali: I find Adyen very inspiring. The nice thing about Adyen is that they always remained independent. So that’s an example I’d be happy to follow.

Paul: Including going public (with bunq)?

Ali: Including taking bunq public.

Paul: That’s an interesting goal. One more thing: A part of the code from your platform has been released publicly, so that third parties can run apps through bunq.

Ali: You’re referring to our API. That’s right. We were the first (bank) in the world, which makes it very special, because all of a sudden you can do things with your bank you couldn’t do before: you can link your administration to your bank, you can create great new apps.

Paul: That allows many people (from the outside) to contribute?

Ali: Yes. It opens a Pandora’s box of possibilities that lead to an awesome user experience.

Paul: Do you have a few nice examples of apps you didn’t think of yourselves, but that were brought to you from outside of bunq?

Ali: Yes, one example which might be of interest to BNR listeners: as an entrepreneur you often hassle with small expenses if you have to hand it out to employees for business expenditures (getting food for a birthday, office equipment, etc.). You often have to give cash, or give advance payments and you end up with a bunch of receipts. Together with ProActive we came up with a very nice solution: you can give every one of your employees a card that allows you to track expenses and do budgeting, which makes it safe, more carefree and easier.

(Commercial break)

Paul: My guest is Ali Niknam, founder and CEO of bunq, the online bank. I’m gonna kick off with a few dilemma’s. You have to choose, there’s room for nuances afterward.
I’d rather be the underdog or My ambition is to conquer the world.

Ali: The underdog.

Paul: bunq first becomes profitable in the Netherlands or bunq must expand internationally first to become profitable.

Ali: International expansion.

Paul: I’m more of an entrepreneur and visionary or I’m a good manager

Ali: The first one. Being an entrepreneur, it’s way more fun.

Paul: But being a manager is also important. How do you make sure you have the right people for the right job?

Ali: That’s a very broad question. At bunq we’ve come to look at the people who are successful working there, people that perform well and contribute over a longer period of time, and we came to the conclusion the answer to your question can be summed up in one sentence: “Get shit done.” So we started recruiting with that slogan: it doesn’t matter whether you’re man, woman, green, purple, yellow, religion, it doesn’t matter, as long as you have your act together and can contribute to the company, you’re welcome.

Paul: So that diversity, is that a goal in and of itself?

Ali: No, the only thing I’m interested in is: do you contribute or not? The rest doesn’t really interest me.

Paul: Does that result in a diverse group of employees, or is it just a bunch of millennials that work there?

Ali: Certainly (it’s diverse). We employ 20 different nationalities, which is a lot. We have relatively many women working at bunq, considering it’s a tech company. I don’t have the percentages at hand, but it’s quite a lot. And what binds us all is the idea of establishing the bank of the free and the way each of us contributes to that end.

Paul: And in terms of employee numbers, how fast is bunq growing?

Ali: I think we’re at about 100 people now, which is really a lot: a year ago we were at about 40/50. So we’re growing fast.

Paul: Seems like a great responsibility to me.

Ali: Yes, but I’ve gotten used to it. TransIP used to be 100 people, is now 200+ people. The first time I ever hired someone was the most exciting for me, Marcel Beringer, we’re still in touch, great guy…that’s when I realized: if I screw up, he can’t pay his mortgage anymore. That kept me up a few nights.

Paul: It’s a bit weird: 1 employee keeps you up at night, but going from 100 to 200 is relatively easy.

Ali: When you get how it works and know how to deal with it, it’s okay.

Paul: About that expansion: you just said that [bunq] needs to grow internationally to become profitable, to paraphrase you freely.

Ali: That’s not entirely accurate, because we can become profitable in the Netherlands, but we choose to grow internationally, because I sincerely believe bunq can become a worldwide success. From that point of view the Netherlands gets small real quick.

Paul: But by choosing international expansion first, aren’t you postponing the moment you become profitable?

Ali: Definitely.

Paul: You’re already active in Italy and Spain…

Ali: Italy, Spain, Germany, Austria.

Paul: How are things going there?

Ali: We’re going steady. At bunq we like to make sure the user experience is awesome. And there are cultural differences at play, however small. So we start with a soft launch as we call it, and then we spend a few months or even a year trying to understand what motivates our users to use bunq, and what they love about it and what we need to improve. And then we kick it up a notch.

Paul: Apart from the technical aspect and how easy it’s becoming to manage your daily banking, when you launched in the Netherlands, it was also to counter the prevailing banking culture. So in that sense I can imagine that, when launching in Austria or Germany, you have to feel how upset the people there were about traditional banks. Has that moment passed?

Ali: When we started, that outrage was definitely present and some people might still have it, but we didn’t play into this outrage. We merely said ‘look, the financial sector is just very fixed in its ways’…

Paul: (interrupts) You didn’t have to play into it. It was done for you. You were very much welcomed, because the (financial) sector was in need of a disruptor.

Ali: …and still is (in need of that), because from the outset our message has always been ‘things can be so much better’. We’re used to things going the way they’ve been going for ages, banks are set in their ways and the products they offer lack diversity…and at the time bunq was the only one to do things differently. That’s why we call ourselves the bank of the free, for people who want things differently, for people who think it can be better, for people who don’t like to see their money invested in shady businesses, or whatever reason they may have…it was like that then (when we first launched) and it’s like that now. The financial crisis may be behind us, but banks are still banks. They’re banks in bad times, they’re banks in good times. And during all those times bunq is the only one that’s different.

Paul: But when the economy is going strong, it suddenly doesn’t really matter that those banks are what they are.

Ali: I don’t know.

Paul: I’m saying that because I imagine the people who might have switched to bunq a few years ago are now feeling something like ‘well, it kinda sucked what those banks did, but no harm no foul. Things are okay as they are now.’

Ali: That’s not what I’m seeing. I notice that more and more people - I don’t know if you’ve ever seen a bunq card; I was at Lowlands Festival last weekend and I saw people whom I didn’t know with a bunq card there - so I’m seeing that use of bunq is increasing. The Netherlands has a wait-and-see mentality and banking is a matter of confidence. And when we launched it was something new, refreshing, awesome and different. A lot of people were curious and interested. They still are, with the added confidence coming from the fact we’ve been around for some time now, that we’re doing a good job…and that we’re here to stay. So I notice a lot of people are considering bunq.

Paul: But is still surprises you when you see a bunq card somewhere?

Ali: Yes, because that’s just an awesome experience. To see something we created being used. There’s no feeling like it.

Paul: I can imagine. And do you think that your target audience gathers at places like Lowlands?

Ali: Yes, I think so.

Paul: Why? Who is the bunq client?

Ali: Everybody who wants to experience that feeling of freedom. We call ourselves bank of the free, that doesn’t necessarily fit the status quo, that wants to do things differently, better, that’s who we are. Looking at Lowlands - in anticipation of your next question - it’s not just millennials that go there. I see a lot of older people there as well. You would fit right in there!

Paul: (laughing) Thanks!

Ali: What binds people there (at Lowlands) is also that feeling of freedom and experiencing a good time together. The same goes for bunq.

Paul: And the same goes for Italy, Germany, Spain, Austria?

Ali: Yes.

Paul: But the bank of the free should also go to the land of the free, right?

Ali: Yes.

Paul: Are you planning to go to America?

Ali: ‘Planning’ is overstating it, but it’s a dream we’re headed toward. We want to dissolve borders in Europe and make it a unified whole with people who share our ideals and love our product…and while we do that we want to start obtaining a banking license in the US a few years from now. It’s an interesting and big market. People still use cheques there. I’m just saying…

Paul: I never heard you guys about the blockchain I think, or did I miss something?

Ali: Well, the thing about bunq is that we surprise people with everything we bring out, so you never hear us talk about anything until the moment it’s there. I have a technical background, as you might know, I’m a programmer and the blockchain technology I find very fascinating. At the same time, we observe it and think of ways in which that technology could be interesting to use, but it does seem to be a bit of a hype these days and many applications are labeled blockchain to make it look more interesting. And we’re just too no nonsense for that.

Paul: You always worked very hard, up to 110 hours a week.

Ali: Well, not every week…

Paul: But to relax you might listen to music, and I’m letting you listen to a bit of Brahms’ Opus 79 No2.

(Classical music starts playing)

Paul: Do you play piano?

Ali: A very long time ago. I’d like to do it more.

Paul: You’re an admirer of Brahms?

Ali: Yeah, it’s great when you’re working as a programmer, writing code to this sort of music. It really gets you in the flow, it’s awesome.

Paul: You play a lot of music? A lot of classical music? Also modern?

Ali: It’s very varied.

Paul: Thanks very much for coming, Ali Niknam of bunq

Ali: Thank you, it was a lot of fun!