Print the IBAN also on the Mastercard, not just on the Maestro

JohnDo

Hi 👋🏼 John, thanks for sharing. I had some questions, but you already answered them 😉😂👌...

And you made even some cool mockups to spice up your post! Well done! That's the way I like it 😉👍

High Five 👐🏼

DaveFlash

Isn't the iBAN already included on the chip? because when you order a new bunq card you choose the first account it's connected to, and I know for a fact, that IBAN will be encoded on the chip for at least the Maestro. Don't see why this would different for Mastercard

johannes

DaveFlash It's not on the Chip and it's more about showing the merchant the IBAN, I for example opened up a new contract at a carrier and he asked for my card to check - with his eyes - the IBAN + name.
.. and simply said: We have it printed on the Maestro and basically every other bank prints the IBAN on the Debitcard, so why not bunq with the bunq Mastercard?

Michiell

Helemaal geen IBAN op de bunq passen lijkt me nog beter.
Omdat een pas aan elke gewenste IBAN te koppelen is heeft het vermelden van een IBAN op de pas geen enkele toegevoegde waarde. Des te minder er op de pas staat, des te mooier de pas is.

johannes

Michiel 🏳️‍🌈 Please read my idea again :) I already answered your complains here:

But I just don't want an IBAN on my bunq Mastercard!
Well, why not have this as an additional option? By default it could say "no IBAN" and you can tap on it to select an IBAN to print on if you want it. So if you don't need it - don't use it.

But we have 25 accounts at bunq!
Yes, we have, but when you get a direct debit on IBAN A you don't actually need to pay it from IBAN A, you can select any account you want to pay from.
And again: It's on the bunq Maestro cards as well, so if it wouldn't be needed we wouldn't need it there either!

Why do I need the IBAN on the Debit Mastercard?
Well, for the same reasons you have it on the bunq Maestro. Sometimes a merchant asks you for your card to check if an account is yours, by checking your name + IBAN combination on your card and although this isn't a 100% bullet-proof check, merchants still do it and I would more like to have the IBAN on my card instead of trying to convince all the merchants in Europe that it's not a good check.
Or you don't have your phone with you and you want to give someone your IBAN, for whatever reason, so you can just pull out your card and give it to him.
Or simple: We have it on the bunq Maestro cards, so why not also on the bunq Mastercards for bunqers who don't need any Maestro?

NiB

Johannes 🇦🇺

And again: It's on the bunq Maestro cards as well, so if it wouldn't be needed we wouldn't need it there either!

But then, I have Maestro card from Revolut, which does NOT have an IBAN number on it.
So it obviously is not "needed".

Thus, my vote would be to make it optional on the Maestro cards as well. Even more security, privacy and cleaner design.

johannes

NiB Revolut's Maestro card is more like a Prepaid Maestro, please look on "normal" banks in that matter, but yes - I, of course, want this to be optional - I don't want to force people to have an IBAN on their Mastercards or Maestro.

johannes

NiB .. and with "so if it wouldn't be needed we wouldn't need it there either" I didn't mean to say that bunq must print the IBAN on Maestros by rules or so, I meant that there must be people needing this, or bunq wouldn't do it :)

NiB

I do have to say, you went to some lengths with your posts here, trying to preempt other's objections ;-)

In all seriousness though, there's one small issue I'd have with: The current card design has the field descriptions ("CARD NUMBER, VALID THRU, CARDHOLDER, CARD DESCRIPTION, SIGNATURE") printed in grey on the back of cards. These look like they have been "mass-printed at the factory" (so to speak, at the same time as the colourful front sides) on the blank cards.

The actual card details seem to be printed in a different printing process, only at the time of card personalization (Your card number, valid thru, Name, etc.), which seems to be much less resilient to wear and tear.

Looking at your design suggestion above, they'd need to change the blank cards and print the "IBAN" field and label on them, due to the printing process. All of them supposedly, since they surely wouldn't be creating and stocking different stocks of blanks just for optionally having your IBAN on it. Leaving this field blank (as I'd intend to do) would look awkward, if not downright "suspicious" to some merchants - and in the end, the design less "clean" and nice.

Basically, even though you're claiming it'd just be an "additional option", this option doesn't really come "for free", i.e. without tampering with the card design for everybody. Unless, of course, they'd print the IBAN label with the IBAN number in the same printing step, i.e. when personalizing the cards. That would look rather "tagged on" and not as nice as you intend it to be.

johannes

NiB

NiB I do have to say, you went to some lengths with your posts here, trying to preempt other's objections ;-)

Not really, it's just..
I'm always asking myself: What would have been the comments under a "Dual PIN"-wish topic on together? Or under a "Rotating CVC"-wish topic?
I just don't like this idea of "it's not possible", especially at bunq with all this amazing features.

But don't get me wrong here! I totally get that some bunqers don't want to see the IBAN on their cards for the reasons you mentioned.

NiB In all seriousness though, there's one small issue I'd have with: The current card design has the field descriptions ("CARD NUMBER, VALID THRU, CARDHOLDER, CARD DESCRIPTION, SIGNATURE") printed in grey on the back of cards. These look like they have been "mass-printed at the factory" (so to speak, at the same time as the colourful front sides) on the blank cards.

When I look on my new card (got it 3-4 days ago), I don't see any grey on the back of the cards and both the "mass-printed" fields and the individual texts are white for me and look more or less the same.

NiB Unless, of course, they'd print the IBAN label with the IBAN number in the same printing step, i.e. when personalizing the cards. That would look rather "tagged on" and not as nice as you intend it to be.

Well, would it really? I especially like my 2. picture because it would be very clean looking in my opinion, I also did a little "mock-up" with a photo of the real cards:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/V9KxkqnQHdvAdRVU7
(I can't upload an image to together right now, don't know why. This is a link to the photo on Google Photos)

And I don't think it would "destroy" the whole design, even if the 4 characters ("IBAN") would also be individual printed, and not on the blank cards by default. But I can't say this for sure, only bunq 😃

And imporant for me here is, that there are bunq countries (and soon-bunq-countries) that are not using Maestro cards at all anymore, but they have a disadvantage now by using bunq:
They need to "waste" one of their cards for a Maestro, that they wouldn't need for anything else, just to get a Debit Card with an IBAN on it like they get with (mostly) any other bank.
This is not so important for people in the Netherlands or Germany, you basically need a Maestro card, so you get this option, without "wasting" a card of your 3 cards.

This is very similar to the "legal name" thing in my opinion, where you also wrote a comment if you can remember:
https://together.bunq.com/d/5337-use-the-full-name-for-sepa-transfers/38 - You didn't like it because of privacy again, and bunq came up with a "you can choose" solution 😃 .. and that's what I would love to see here, too.

You may don't need it, but there are countries and people who I think do. And for them I would love to see this, as an optional choice.

.. but let's say it can't be optional, what's the privacy advantage about not having it? You already have your card number + vaild date on your card, with them somebody can do basically more than with your IBAN. And more clean looking? As you can see with my photo above, I don't think it would add that much. And you can choose any IBAN you like, so it could be a "waste" account, too.

And as I said before: If nobody would want or need this, then the IBAN wouldn't be on the Maestro either, but it seams like there are people needing this, so bunq printed the IBAN on the Maestro and other banks on their Debit Mastercards as well.

johannes

NiB oh and N26 also has the IBAN above the magnet stripe, "IBAN" and the IBAN itself look basically the same, so I don't think they pre-print IBAN and BIC either: https://photos.app.goo.gl/h1GkQC8CGk4dqsib8 (The IBAN is dead since a year, so no need to hide it)

NiB

Johannes 🇦🇺
Well, to be fair, in the thread about sending legal names in transfer, I did agree it could be made an option.

This is the card design I'm talking about, and which I have myself:
https://blackwater.live/2018/08/28/bunq-bank/bunq_mastercard_back/
Labels seem printed on the blanks, personal data in white at personalization.

Privacy advantage: account number is just another bit of information that's not needed in context of a Mastercard transaction - and could potentially be misused. For account "recovery" for instance. Granted, maybe less so in the context of bunq specifically, than at other banks. If it's not necessary and I don't see the benefit of displaying the information, I'm usually against having it printed in the first place.

johannes

NiB Here you should be able to see, that it's not "that grey" anymore:

- This is a 3-4 days old card and my "mock-up" with the IBAN from the Maestro copied above the Magnet Stripe, to see how it would look in reality.

And you said it - Granted, maybe less so in the context of bunq specifically, than at other banks. - But I get, that you don't need it, but if it's possible to do this optional, would it then be a problem?
Because I think, if there wouldn't be any people needing this, it wouldn't even be printed on the Maestro and as you can see with my mock-up, it wouldn't take that much additional space I think (and I think "IBAN" can be printed individual with the IBAN together, as it's so small that you wouldn't really see the difference. N26 is doing the same) :)

johannes

NiB .. or simple asked: Wouldn't it just be fair for bunqers in countries where the Maestro is basically dead to also get a bunq Debit Card with an IBAN on it, without needing to waste one of the 3 cards for a dead one?

johannes

.. with the missing signature field on the travel card, wouldn't there be more space for this?

Michiell

Johannes 🇦🇺 Een IBAN op een MasterCard heeft geen toegevoegde waarde.
IBAN op de Maestro is al zinloos omdat je elke gewenste IBAN kan koppelen.

Samzoiets

Main issue I see here is that I have two Maestros with the wrong IBAN on both of them. How would I be able to proof to someone that other IBANs are connected to the card?

On the other hand: why would I want to show my IBAN on the card? As it is private data I don’t want it on my card and show it everywhere I use my card.

johannes

Sam 🇳🇱🇬🇧 Please read my 1. post carefully, I answered this questions. And I ask for it as an optional thing, for people who want this.

Patrick-P

So the main problem we are trying to solve here is ‘merchants want to check if the account belongs to you by verifying the IBAN number on your card’.

Sounds like these merchants use an arbitrary and old-fashioned way to verify that, in the age of PIN codes and online payments.

In my humble opinion adding an extra IBAN number just creates more clutter and noise on the physical card. If you link it to a different account in the future it becomes outdated.

More importantly:

Why would we want Bunq to dedicate valuable time and resources to create this optional solution for an old problem that feels like it’s the exact opposite of one of the Bunq core values: freedom.

Frank-Maroon-Eagle

Patrick This is absurd. Even before GDPR, no merchant has any reason to ask a customer for his IBAN that might or might not be the funding account of a payment card in case of card payments.

The only reason that I can think of why IBAN’s are helpful on cards is that the customer can look it up there. For other things like filling out a direct debit form at a shop.

Mike1975

Patrick Das finde ich auch etwas seltsam, vor allem da ja gerade bei Prepaid-Karten nicht mal mehr ein Name drauf steht.
Allerdings habe ich auf meiner Debit-Mastercard von der Sparkasse auch den IBAN auf der Rückseite stehen.

Mike1975

NiB

Patrick Sounds like these merchants use an arbitrary and old-fashioned way to verify that, in the age of PIN codes and online payments.
Frank This is absurd. Even before GDPR, no merchant has any reason to ask a customer for his IBAN that might or might not be the funding account of a payment card in case of card payments.

As far as I understand, it isn't about card payments, PIN codes or online payments (and neither did the original poster mention that). Some merchants want to check if you're the account holder of a bank account for purposes of SEPA Direct Debits from that account. In the case of mobile operators, they'd use these to debit monthly and usage fees from the customer's bank account. Also (consider the case of device subsidies), there still might be an assumption that creditworthiness is tied to having a local bank account.

Even in such cases, having the account number on the cards seems somewhat pointless if companies are discriminating against "suspicious" foreign bank accounts. That is, might not be getting the contract in question anyway, without a local bank account. These reports seem to be a regular occurrence here on Together, from France for instance (though bunq seems to delete or crack down otherwise on these repeating questions, happened to one I read only yesterday that is inaccessible now).

johannes

Patrick In my humble opinion adding an extra IBAN number just creates more clutter and noise on the physical card. If you link it to a different account in the future it becomes outdated.

Let me mention my answer from above to this question:

Johannes 🇦🇺 Or simple: We have it on the bunq Maestro cards, so why not also on the bunq Mastercards for bunqers who don't need any Maestro?

In the Netherlands, Germany, .. you need a Maestro and you have "luck", because bunq prints the IBAN on it for you, so it's not really an issue for you, but what is with countries like Ireland? Currently bunqers from this countries would normally need no Maestro, but because bunq only prints the IBAN on the Maestro, they still need to "waste" one of their 3 card for that, if they feel the need for an IBAN on the card.

Frank The only reason that I can think of why IBAN’s are helpful on cards is that the customer can look it up there. For other things like filling out a direct debit form at a shop.

I can only tell from my experience: I walked into a mobile operator shop and they didn't want to do a direct debit without the IBAN checked on my card, now just with a bunq Debit Mastercard I would have need to walk away. It's great that bunq is all about freedom and new ways, but I don't really care about that, when I get into problems in real life thanks to that.

Mike1975 Das finde ich auch etwas seltsam, vor allem da ja gerade bei Prepaid-Karten nicht mal mehr ein Name drauf steht.

Was hat das mit Prepaid Karten zutun? Es geht um Lastschriften, und die bunq Karten sind keine Prepaid Karten.

NiB Even in such cases, having the account number on the cards seems somewhat pointless if companies are discriminating against "suspicious" foreign bank accounts. That is, might not be getting the contract in question anyway, without a local bank account. These reports seem to be a regular occurrence here on Together, from France for instance (though bunq seems to delete or crack down otherwise on these repeating questions, happened to one I read only yesterday that is inaccessible now).

They also check it for local banks, at least the merchants I have met. It has nothing to do with "suspicious" foreign bank accounts, it has more something to do with "is the chance high that the provided IBAN is actually the account of this person". Of course I could "steal" a card from a person with the same name, but the chances for that are not really high.
And to be fair: Just checking the card is an easy and really cheap way to check the account holder, not 100% bullet proof, but better than nothing.
So your comment perfectly said what my point is here, expect for the "suspicious" foreign bank part - it's just, and yes - I couldn't believe it at first too - for the name check, nothing else.

And to all: It's great that you don't need it, but most of you have at least the chance to get it, In case you do at some day, thanks to the Maestro card.
BUT there aren't just Dutch customers at bunq anymore and some countries don't use the Maestro Card, for them this would be an nice option in my opinion. And as you can see on the pictures I created above, it could be implemented in a really slim way and on the travel card we don't even have the signature field anymore, so even more room.