• Ideas

  • Dirty corner for deleted posts

Current Situation:
Currently there are a lot of cencoship accusations. People claim that their critics about v3 have been deleted.

Motivation:
For me it is not transparent what is going on. I do not have the information to check if these posts were censored or if they were deleted because they were against basic rules (bad language, ...) and the moderators just did what everyone is expecting. Currently I only see the accusations on social media platforms but there is now way to get the hole picture and the actual storry. That is why it it very hard to come to a neutral / not biased position.

My proposed approach:
As in most censorship accusations, transparent working is the key. That is why I would love to see a dirty corner for ddeleted posts. Once the moderators have to delete a post, it should be sent to the dirty corner instead of just beeing gone. For even more transparency, there should be a comment about the violation or the reasons. That corner would allow any user to verify the accusations and understand the moderators work. I hope it can stop the current situation ... or at least prevent it from happening again.

    Oh, and of course there should be a warning before entering this area of together. A short text telling the user what this area is about and that it might be NSFW.

      I think this would be a good idea! Bunq talks about a loud minority, but I have no way to verify this as a user of bunq, if the posts we're moved so we could still see them we can verify their claims

        That is my problem.

        I see these loud accusations and I read that posts might have been deteled for beeing against the rules.

        But there is no easy way to verify any if these two stories and I am not a friend if blind trust. It is possible to find critics on together and I even saw one thread abou a suspicious amount of 5 star reviews after the launch of v3. That is a good hint against the censirship but I would prefer to see the what is actually going on.

          I support this lovely idea. I think every company need to have this. A good chance to lead as an example and show the world how you could change it...

            @Mark-Maroon-Wolf-2472796612#177431 Lies gerne hier regelmäßig mit. Am Wochenende geht das ganz gut. Da bekommt man so einiges mit.

              @Mark-Maroon-Wolf-2472796612#177407 Hi Mark!

              Thanks for sharing your thoughts 💭

              I’m one of the moderators here :) So, kind of feel this is about me too 😉.

              Although I could constantly keep repeating myself that the moderators don’t censor stuff they don’t like, I also know that there always will be people that don’t trust my blue puppy eyes for it.

              For the record, we hide some posts and don’t delete them. Posts and comments that got hidden will still be available for the users who made them! Also they will see the reason why. See our Community Guideliness.

              I’m all about transparency, so if such corner would really help, then I am all for that. BUT, I personally don’t think it will help for several reasons

              • We hide posts that contain personal information, those topics can’t be kept public somewhere.
              • People still will argue that not all posts are in that corner and still will pull the censorship card 💳.
              • I think such corner will also become a blame and shame kind of thing. This will only feed the haters.
              • Aren’t we all a bunq user because we trust that bunq will protect us and our money? So the base should be trust I think.

              After the V3 launch 🚀 we took a different approach because we learned from the past. All topics about V3 we left open, referred them user to the special topics or answered their questions and then we locked the post. So, almost all of those topics are still open, just to avoid the censorship discussion. A few comments and post we did hide if their were very disrespectful for instance.

              I want to close by again saying that we love to hear your questions, thoughts and ideas. Also criticism is allowed. The only thing we ask users is to do that in a constructive and respectful way. That’s all.

              Enjoy your Sunday!

                Or in bunq terms: the “minority corner.” And I think that the App Store review section of the bunq app already serves this purpose, so no need to have it added to Together. We don’t want to distract the developers from a weightier task... cough reverting V2 cough

                  @JohnDo#177474 Als een post verborgen is kan je er als gewone gebruiker niet meer bij, ook al heb je in dat topic wel gereageerd. Je kan alleen je eigen post zien als de post verborgen is in een topic wat nog wel te zien is voor iedereen (al kunnen de anderen jouw verborgen post dan niet meer zien natuurlijk).

                    @JeroenE#177590 correcte aanvulling.

                      @Heiko-Hartwig#177467 Ich habe heute abend etwas mitgelesen aber bisher ist mir noch nichts aufgefallen. Aktuell ist mir noch kein verschwundener Post aufgefallen. Statt dessen wurde auf v3 Posts eingegangen wie ich es erwarten würde.

                        @JohnDo#177474 I like your in detail answer.
                        First: Of course it would be part of your work but my intention is not to target you or other moderators. It is more about empowering the users to see all sides of the coin. Not only the loud haters and some official statements. That should empower the users to go to the dirt corner and verify claims on reddit or twitter.

                        Now to your points:

                        • I agree to the thing with the personal data. But would it possible to just remove the personal data instead of the whole post?

                        • People will still argue not all posts are in that corner... Guess you win this point. Only solutions I came up with are a trusted third party (but I can not name one) or a technical solution (~public blockchain... way too big project).

                        • Blame and shame: I think you protect users from the shame by maybe anonymizing the post (hiding usernames?).
                          Maybe I am naive here but I thing good work and good argumentation can protect moderators / bunq from beeing shamed. Even if someone made bad decision or a mistake, it should be possible to bring the post back to the regular together. Acknowledging a mistake seems to be less than the current wave of hate.

                        • Trust as the base is a good idea but there is this "trust but verify" saying. This conversation for shure helps to build trust but I really like transparence on some topics.

                          @Vallonic#177557 I do not like app store reviews as a metric for anything. It is too cheap to buy good or bad reviews. You don't even have to be a real customer / user of bunq to write a review.

                            @JohnDo#177474 Interessant... ik kan mijn berichten niet meer zien die volgens mij verwijderd zijn? Waar dan?

                              @Alijda-Golden-Butterfly#177632 If you go to your Together profile, wou will see all the comments and topics you ever posted.

                              If one of your topics or comment got “removed” that only means it will be hidden for everybody else, but not for you. You only can’t go to a topic where you commented on, but where that whole topic got “removed”. In that case only the one that starter that topic will be able to see the whole topic.

                                @Mark-Maroon-Wolf-2472796612#177611 Hi 👋🏼 Mark,

                                Thanks for you extensive reply. You have a few valid points.

                                The problem I have with anonymising stuff (and the idea itself) is that this (at this point) all means manual labour from us ... and that labour is only for the relative small group of users that haven’t got any trust in that their bank will do the right thing. And it also doesn’t address the real issue. Because the main reason why this censorship thing sometimes rises is when lot of users post feedback in non constructive / non respectful way and we hide those. To prevent this during V3, we mainly only locked a topic and did not hide them. All for the love of transparency.

                                I also have to admit that the way bunq was moderating after the release of SuperGreen didn’t help in creating and maintaining trust. But we all leaned from that. Also sometimes a moderator makes a mistake (yes I know, it’s hard to believe 😂)

                                Finally, it does also happens that we unhide posts because the user altered the text (or we removed personal info for instance). In some cases bunq will even reach out to users privately about their post or comment. They other way around also happens :).

                                In the end.. all the mods and bunq try to keep Together organised and a fun place for everybody. I love to hear ever idea that helps with that.

                                  As a former fellow moderator at multiple fora, I can confirm that moderation is a tricky job. Some will persist on accusations of censorship, while others will accuse you of being to loose in moderating a forum.

                                  The main job of being a moderator is to keep the discussion going, with the focus on the topic at hand. Many post will distract users from the topic at hand and therefore will have to be moderated. For example a flame war or a rant by a few users, will focus only on their views and will let the views of other users unseen.

                                  These kind of topics will undermine one of the core goals of a forum, which is the function of a knowledge base, where users can find answers to their questions.

                                  When a topic derails, it is very hard for a user that is new to the topic, to find their answers in that topic. The discussion has shifted from the topic to some very detailed aspects of the topic.

                                  A moderator had to do right to both the outside user that seeks information and the parties involved in the discussion. There is a very thin line between the freedom to discuss in detail and keeping the information on a forum accessible.

                                  Moderator isn’t an easy job and it is a constant weighing of interests of those who are involved in a discussion and those whom are looking for information. Another factor in the balance are the interests of the party facilitating the forum, in this case bunq.

                                  So before accusing the moderators (or bunq) of harsh censorship, one should consider which interests are involved and how a forum stays accessible to all levels of knowledge to serve its purposes.

                                  A shout out to the volunteers (remember that they are volunteers!) is in place.

                                    @JohnDo#177668 as before your post contains some new views for me. As an outsider I have a very basic knowledge on this and a lot of asumptions. You and @Samzoiets#177671 helped to look more differentiated at the current situation.

                                    @JohnDo#177668 ... all means manual labour from us

                                    Can't provide a solution for this. Maybe some consultant can sell you some unrealiable ai bigdata buzzword thing.

                                    @JohnDo#177668 And it also doesn’t address the real issue

                                    Same as in the last round. You win this point (again). As long as there is no way to ensure trust in the dirty corner, people can claim about censorship.

                                    @JohnDo#177668 But we all leaned from that.

                                    That is the important part. Mistakes and wrong directions are a thing and you will never be able to prevent them but it is important how you deal with it.

                                    @JohnDo#177668 To prevent this during V3, we mainly only locked a topic and did not hide them.

                                    I was observing new posts and found some that went to 404. Not shure what happened to them. Instead of showing the 404, it might help to show a reason like "This post has been moved / hidden because.... was not in the v3 area... should be handled as a 1 on 1 chat.... was rude.... contained personal data...". By just showing the 404, it is easy to claim that the post just disappeared.

                                    @Samzoiets#177671 A moderator had to do right to both the outside user that seeks information and the parties involved in the discussion. There is a very thin line between the freedom to discuss in detail and keeping the information on a forum accessible.

                                    I see your point.

                                    @Samzoiets#177671 one should consider which interests are involved and how a forum stays accessible to all levels of knowledge to serve its purposes.

                                    Yes but it is kind of easy to get caught by the hype / shitstorm on reddit and twitter. Guess it is some psychological thing. The initial idea of the dirty corner was a tool to verify claims and in case they are wrong it would be easy to post something like "Here is your censored post. Everybody have a look and see how rude it is.". That would provide a more complete picture and might stop that hypething.
                                    But I got your points and I see why that thing could backfire when poeple do not see themselfes in the small line of moderation.

                                    @Samzoiets#177671 remember that they are volunteers!

                                    Did not know that! Even more thanks for the in detail answers and argumentations!

                                      @JohnDo#177667 Als gewone gebruiker kan maar maximaal 15 posts van je zelf zien in je Together profiel en niet allemaal.

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